Awsome Video/Slideshow. I read about this in the lost books of the bible.
2At 12:30 am Nov/03/09 Mike McCue said...
Great information.
3At 10:11 pm Nov/17/09 Paul said...
The only issue I have with this theory, is that it gives angels the ability to re-produce, which then leads to angel babys... this is not supported by the Word of God, furthermore, Jesus said about angels, that they neither mary nor are given in marriage, so if the angels don't marry, then they don't reproduce... So this theory about angels being able to provide sperm for human women raises a big red flag... just food for thought... Please let me know what your thoughts are about that.
Thanks,
Paul
4At 2:01 am Nov/22/09 Shonsu said...
Paul, did you even watch the video? It tells you that the fallen angels did not reproduce themselves but possessed men who then reproduced.
5At 9:01 am Nov/27/09 Fred said...
Paul, where does it say that angels CANNOT procreate? All Jesus said was that angels neither marry, nor are given in marriage. He did NOT say that they did not have the capacity to reproduce.
Celibate individuals CAN reproduce, but choose not to do so.
6At 3:44 am Nov/28/09 Paul said...
I have not been able to view this video, it keeps bogging down on me, but I have finally been able to and basically the video says that these fallen angels possesed men, and trough that media, they had this union with women. Now that makes scriptural sense, it can be verified by the bible and I fully agree with that, and am blessed to see this explanation finally come out!! That is awesome, praise God.
As far as the other comment above about Angels having the ability to reproduce but the don't by choice, that is rediculous. If we understand that God does everything for a purpose and to create angels and not allow them to reproduce(Marry or be given in marriage) makes no sense at all. Man was given the ability to procreate, for the purpose of populating the earth. Of Angels, the Word of God says in Hebrews 1:14 that ALL His angels are ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation. So anyway, thanks for your comment above Shonsu, for clarifying that for me, much apreciated
7At 7:54 am Nov/28/09 Shonsu said...
Paul, I'm glad that you did get to watch the video. It did bring to light to me something that I had wondered about before but hadn't really studied or put two and two together on. Praise God for his revealed Word to us!
8At 9:38 am Nov/28/09 Fred said...
Gee Paul, thanks for your kindness. I don't think my comment was at all ridiculous. While man certainly was given the ability to procreate, there is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that angels can NOT. While their ORIGINAL status is to NOT procreate (neither married or given in marriage), IF they fell from their "first estate," this could have easily become part of the picture. Procreating directly with women MAY have been the case, but I think it is difficult to become dogmatic about it, although it appears you are and that's fine.
There are numerous theories about the fallen angels/Nephilim connection. Chuck Missler has one, Arnold Fruchtenbaum has one, and others have an opinion.
I think it is very clear from Scripture that angels have abilities that humans obviously do not possess. It is clear that they are very powerful. Satan, for instance, obviously has the ability to control the forces of nature and to kill. God gave him permission to do whatever he wanted to do to Job, except take his life. Satan was also able to inflict tremendous harm and injury onto Job's body and person, even causing severe hallucinations, making him an insomniac, causing his teeth to fall out, and his skin to turn black, etc.
While ALL angels (who did NOT fall) ARE ministering spirits to those who are inheriting salvation, you are obviously NOT considering the fact that we are speaking of FALLEN angels here, who no more want us to inherit salvation, than for Jesus to return to earth.
IF powerful angels (who exist outside the realm of TIME), have abilities that mere mortals do not possess, how difficult do you think it would be for an angel to impregnate a woman, IF that angel fell through rebellion? Could it be that this was the sin, which was so heinous that this is the very reason that God has kept them chained SINCE then; not merely possessing other men to impregnate woman, but because they found a way to impregnate human women directly?
Beyond this, if a fallen angel merely POSSESSES a man, and that man co-habitates with a woman, where do we get the sense that the result of this union - Nephilim - were extremely powerful, unless they too were possessed FROM birth? In fact, why would a fallen angel even NEED to possess a human being in order to force that man to have sexual relations with a human woman?
However, if the resultant Nephilim were merely POSSESSED from birth (and not fallen angels/hybrid humans), could they not have been saved? It would appear from Scripture that the Nephilim were not merely mortals on steroids, but a hybrid creature; a cross between a human and an angel. When the Flood occurred, their bodies would have died, but their spirits would have remained alive, waiting for another chance to begin the process all over again, which seems to have occurred by the time the Israelites reached the Promised Land, and there were "giants" in the land. Through their rebellion, they were forced to wander for forty years before they could try again.
Because you are unable to wrap your brain around the possibility that angels COULD have procreated directly with women, does not mean that it did not occur.
Can you wrap your brain around the concept of the Trinity, or how Jesus - who remained fully God - became fully human, and had two specific natures; one human and one divine, yet neither precluded the other?
Philip Goodman makes some excellent points, but his is not the only opinion out there.
9At 3:23 am Nov/30/09 Paul said...
Fred, speculation can turn into heresie very quickly, and a rule I learned a long time ago when it comes to the exposition of scripture, is where the scripture is silent, we should be silent or tread with fear and trepidation. Many people have been lead away captive into false doctrine as a result of speculation and imaginative ideas, and that is the point where it can turn into damnable heresies as the scripture says(2 Peter 2:1). My suggestion is we take speculation with a grain of salt. It is not a matter of wrapping my brain around it, it is a matter of being verified, and clarified, by the scripture, and we as students of the word must be careful on what we teach or preach, especially on topics such as this one that can lead into a miriad of other false doctrines...
10At 5:32 am Nov/30/09 Fred said...
Paul, the words "heresy" and "apostasy" are thrown around way too much today. Generally speaking, these words should be reserved for the attempted changes to orthodox beliefs of Christianity (e.g. salvation and everything directly connected to it, such as the deity of Christ, the Trinity, etc.).
Areas such as what we're discussing do not even come close to areas that might dip into heresy.
If I'm wrong about the Nephilim, my salvation is not in question, nor is my belief in the deity of Christ, or the Trinity, etc. I'm also in good company, as Chuck Missler, Stephen Quayle, Tom Horn, and a number of others believe what I've shared.
I've written a number of books, Paul - 12 to be exact - on a variety of theological subjects. I have a Bachelor's in Bible and a Masters in Biblical Studies. I'm not bragging (nor am I stating that I have come to the end of my learning), but I am simply saying that I do not come by my opinions lightly.
It is easy to call someone a heretic, Paul and many people unfortunately do that, to make themselves feel better about any differences they might have with someone else.
There is no way (that I can see), that understanding the Scriptures to be teaching that angels actually co-habitated directly with humans can lead to any "other" false doctrines. That is absurd, but think what you will.
There are numerous, well-educated people who believe the Nephilim were nothing more than human individuals from the line of Seth. Are they also heretics, Paul?
People disagree over numerous areas of Scripture, where there is wiggle room. There are disagreements over baptism, the Lord's Supper, the Sabbath, etc.
Frankly, I know of no one who will enter into eternity to hear Christ say "Well done. You were correct on everything." It simply will not happen.
What it boils down to, in at least some less significant cases, is not who is RIGHT, but how people treat one another in light of their differences.
I think I'm done here. I thought the videos were really good, however, in spite of what you and/or others might think Paul, there is room for other opinions with regard to this particular subject.
Take care folks, and enjoy your conversation.
11At 2:04 am Dec/01/09 Paul said...
All I can do is reiterate that we must be careful when speculating about certain topics in the scripture. As I said, it CAN lead to heresy, I didn't say it would, I said it CAN. Having lived in a part of the world where Mormons are the predominant religion, pre-existing spirit babys are a part of their false doctrine, which also includes Another Jesus which is contrary to the Jesus of the bible. So I am on the defense when it comes to speculation. Nothing wrong with speculation, just as long as we don't make a theology out of it. The gap theory is another highly disputed speculative idea. However once again, where the scripture is silent, we must be careful. Many people also use writings from the Book of Enoch and others to feed their ideas, and these books are not canon and it can get peoples minds off on a wrong thinking mode, and for some, into Alice's rabbit hole. Regardless of how much learning we have acquired, we ALL are susceptible to error, because we are human... And thank you Mr Goodman you did a great job!
12At 4:22 am Dec/01/09 Fred said...
Thought I was done, but I keep receiving alerts from here. Anyone know how to turn them off?
Paul, you need to go back and watch the videos again (if your computer system allows), because as good as Goodman's video lesson is, he also included CONJECTURE. Nowhere does Scripture come out and say "Fallen angels possessed human men, and they then had sexual relations with human women, producing ungodly "earth-born" creatures called, Nephilim" or something similar. If it DID, we would not be having this conversation at all. As it is, you have no more reason to accept Goodman's conjecture, as I do for accepting Missler's.
Regarding the book of Enoch, you're right, it is not canon, however it is clear that at least Peter and Jude read and studied the book during their lifetime. It's possible Christ did as well, but that's conjecture...however, the book was widely available then.
I view the book of Enoch as a valuable commentary and that's it.
Regarding the Nephilim, I am not sure how anyone can make "theology" out of those events. Whether fallen angels actually had direct sexual relations with women, or whether they merely possessed men, who then had sexual relations with women is really not the point. The point is the type of being that was the result of that.
However, I find it difficult to believe that a possessed man who united sexually with a woman would be able to create something as profoundly evil as Nephilim. In fact, the most important question to be asked, is the same one to be asked if fallen angels had direct sexual union with human females - HOW would their reproductive material get from them into the woman? In the case of the human male, they would obviously need to CHANGE that man's DNA as carried through his seed to the woman. If that was the case, and they could do that, then having direct sexual contact with human women is not beyond the range of possibility.
Moreover, have you ever considered another reason why the ministering angels are neither married nor given in marriage? Off the top of my head, I cannot recall a time when angels DID appear as a woman. They normally appeared as males. As God is masculine, it appears that the angelic beings are also masculine, which of course, would be the biggest reason they are neither married nor given in marriage. In fact, it would appear that it was not until Creation that God made beasts and humanity male AND female.
Again, I will repeat...heresy leading to apostasy has to do with the Five Fundamentals of the faith. If I believe that the Nephilim came from the line of Seth, as many do, I cannot for the life of me see how that MIGHT eventually lead me down the road to rejecting the deity of Christ, His virgin birth, His death and resurrection, or salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. But maybe I'm missing something. It would certainly be erroneous of me to insist that the individuals who believe it was the line of Seth might wind up becoming heretics.
The GAP theory - though speculative - also does not equal heresy or apostasy. I realize where the Scriptures are silent, it is difficult to draw dogmatic conclusions, however, implications ARE made in Scripture, and conclusions can be DRAWN from them. This is part of the historical-grammatical hermeneutic.
Nowhere does Jesus say "I am God the Son. I CREATED everything." Yet, we put His actions together with His words, and we get God, the Son.
Your reference to Mormonism proves my point. They, like most cults, err when it comes to WHO Jesus is, because they view Jesus as the brother of Lucifer, and not God the Son, but merely divine. THAT is heresy leading to apostasy, because it denies the truth of who Jesus Christ is.
My (or your) view of the Nephilim, cannot do that, no more than thinking about what Enoch looked like as he was being translated from earth to heaven.
Now, does anyone know how to turn off the alerts from here?
13At 2:41 am Dec/02/09 Paul said...
This is good.... More food for thought... Goliath the Giant and his brothers, are thought to have the same characteristics as the Nephilim, how ever, he was a decendent of Noah, probably through Ham. He was not a result of the so called union between fallen angels and women as some actually think, since ALL after the flood were decendants of Noah, Shem, Ham or Jephath. However, they were giants. We do know that Satan and his minions have power, but we don't know what all they are capable of. And there is no scriptural evidence that Satan or his angels have the ability to create life, so if he can't create life, the only thing he can do is alter what already exists, and this is where the speculation comes in. As scientists are playing around with DNA right now, would fallen angels back then have had the ability to do even much more than the minds of the most brilliant today only with evil intent, which could fall into the category of demon posession...
14At 4:11 am Dec/02/09 Fred said...
If you look closely at Genesis 6:4, it says that Nephilim were on the earth then, "AND AFTER THAT," meaning (as many biblical scholars understand it), that they appeared AGAIN at some point in the future.
It does not matter who was a descendent of Noah. The women who gave birth to the first set of Nephilim were descendents of Adam and Eve.
If fallen angels were able to come along AGAIN and mess with man's DNA, in an attempt to create more Nephilim to keep the Israelites OUT of the promised land, then that they would certainly do that.
Paul said, "We do know that Satan and his minions have power, but we don't know what all they are capable of. And there is no scriptural evidence that Satan or his angels have the ability to create life, so if he can't create life, the only thing he can do is alter what already exists, and this is where the speculation comes in."
On one hand, you are saying that we have no idea what the extent of power that Satan has, yet you then ASSUME he cannot create life, because Scripture is silent on it. But, IS it silent on it? We obviously know that Satan can kill (book of Job). If we look at Revelation, when the Antichrist comes back to life, either he did not really die, or Satan was actually able to raise him from the dead.
You are speculating just as much as everyone else here, Paul. You are also assuming that humans are MORE intelligent today than they were during Adam's day and that is merely an assumption. When God made Adam and Eve, do you think he made them only somewhat intelligent? I think they were brilliant myself.
Sorry Paul, your whole line of thinking here is as much conjecture as you are telling me mine is, as seen in the use of the words "could," "don't know," "thought to have the same...," "probably".
If you want to stick with demonic possession, that is fine, but please don't resort to referring to someone else's opinion as "ridiculous" simply because:
1) you don't like their opinion, or
2) you cannot wrap your brain around it, or
3) you "know" your opinion to be correct and have no patience for any opinion you perceive as wrong
I certainly do not mind if someone believes the Nephilim came from the line of Seth, or that human men were possessed, or that fallen angels co-habitated with human women, giving birth to Nephilim, whose bodies were destroyed in the Flood, but their spirits roamed around trying to find other things to possess.
15At 5:18 am Dec/02/09 Paul said...
Fred, I thought you were done commenting... But you just couldn't resist coming back could you...:)... However, at this point I think it is best to conclude and Agree to Disagree... Happy trails...:)
16At 4:31 am Dec/03/09 Fred said...
Hi Paul,
I feel it's best to be as clear as possible and since you continued to respond to my comments, I certainly did not want to appear to be rude, by ignoring yours.
But since this last post of yours is nothing more than an ad hominem retort, it is probably a good time to agree to disagree with you, Paul.
17At 10:52 am Dec/23/09 Rodger said...
If the nations that the children of Israel were told by God to drive out were hybrids born of the unholy union of Fallen angels and the daughters of men, then how many millions of EVERY race are born of polluted blood and cut off from Redemption in Christ by the fact that they are Tares????
18At 10:56 pm Dec/23/09 Fred said...
And your point is what, Rodger? Are you in agreement that the Tares are beyond redemption, or do you believe they are redeemable, though having been sewn by Satan?
Please elaborate...
19At 5:58 am Dec/24/09 Rodger said...
Please elaborate...
I guess they are beyond redemption. If so that explains the mystery of ELECTION, and predestination.
I wish I could determine if I was a Tare or not. I was probally sewn by Satan, which is why when I go to a church or am around Godly people I feel like I am on the out side looking in and never expeience any of the reality they seem to experience in Christ. I belive it is possible for a person to come to see that God has no desire for them and if they persist in assembling together with God's Chosen they will either become just another religious Pharasee or Satan will use them to create trouble in the Church, etc.
This is very troubling. But it may be because of DNA a person may not be able to come to Christ. I do believe that!!
It may be that RH Negative is the chosen Blood line of Adam and Eve and that RH Positives are the Serpent Seed and hybrid illigimate Bastard offspring of Fallen angels or simply "pre Adamic man. But the promise of Life Eternal is made to Adam's Race:
Like the Song "All Hail the Power in Jesus Name"
The words go "Ye chosen SEED, of Israel's RACE, Ye Ransomed from the Fall bring forth the Royal Diadem and crown Him Lord of All..."
Many sing these words from a hymnal , few comprehend them.
Many are Called, few are chosen as the Calvinists proclaim.
Paul said to test yourself to see whether you are in the faith and to make your calling and ELECTION sure.
But he doesn't say what to do if you "fail the test?" Iguess thats where the verse comes into play whic states:
"They went out from us because they were not of us they went out that they might be made manifest they were not of us.."
God siad to Israel" "You only have I known of all the inhabitants of the earth"
Jesus said: "I was only sent to the Lost sheep of the house of Israel" He said that to that woman even though she was begging Him for help.
Perhaps many may see the glory of God shinning from His ELect and see the beauty and light of Christ in their countenance and desire to come but yet be unable because they are alienated from the covenant of GRACE???
Old Testament says: "All who see them will know them... (Rough quote?)
Some beieve and maintain that RH Negative blood is the true blood line of adam and eve and the rhpositives are either serpent seed, or pre adamic man and are not able to receive salvation.
I can't say (I fear tthat may be true?!?)
It is a theory that seems to fit my beliefs of Soverign GRACE. Only 14% of humanity have this blood, while over 87% of humanity are RH Positive.
The Bible does teach that it is a remnant that wiill be saved. A Remnant according to the election of Grace...
Maybe it's just happenstance or maybe not I can't say???
The RH Negative blood type can be found in EVERY eteenic group. But despit this only 14% of humanity have it.
Out of every nation, every kindred,,,???
I have tried to get my blood type, but never am able to find anyone to type me. They refuse. I see that Paul rebuked the early church for their >>> Endless Geneologies Perhaps that was their way of determiing they were of a godly line and "proving their pedegree" Or maybe it was spiritual prde or a hobby I know not???
But I have wondered if I am truly of a godly line this has been a subject of great fear for me. A person should be able to just find out the truth -- right???
It may be that there are a vast number of people that are "going to church" or as I say assembling together with God's true Elect that have absolutely no right, to be there because they have neither part nor lot in the matter.
THAT IS WHAT I WAS REFERING TO!!! (You asked I answered)
20At 6:49 am Dec/24/09 Fred said...
Hi Rodger,
Frankly, there are a million opinions out there regarding election. I've studied it and for the life of me, it is difficult to wrap my brain around. I know what the Bible says, but like trying to figure out the Trinity, some things are best left up to faith in God's righteousness and love. (By the way, I have never heard about the RH Positive being the true line of Adam. I'm not even sure how that could be substantiated, if it was true.)
I don't wish to sound as if I am oversimplifying things, but putting all this other stuff aside for a moment, let me ask you this:
Who do you believe Jesus to be?
In the Bible, the term repentance means at its root - to change one's mind. Do you believe that Jesus Christ is God and Savior? Do you, like the thief on the cross, believe that He is THE King who rules over all? Do you believe that He died an excruciatingly painful death on the cross, and whose blood was shed for the remission of sins? Do you also believe that He rose again, because death could not hold Him?
If you believe that Jesus is God AND Savior (that He came to do what He said He came to do), that truth has been revealed to you by the Holy Spirit, just as it was to Peter.
When we recognize that we are completely unable to do anything to earn or obtain salvation for ourselves, we then look to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith. It is in Him we place our confidence and it does not matter how we feel about it.
Salvation is God's work for man, not the other way around. In short, to believe on Jesus Christ is to see and believe the all-sufficiency of His saving grace.
The enemy wants us to doubt; to spend our life doubting God and His Word. The reality though, is that you certainly seem as though you WANT to receive His salvation. Why would God turn you away? I do not see that in Scripture.
From my understanding, Tares, having been sewn by Satan, are not redeemable. However, if you WERE a Tare, do you really think you would be wondering about it, and whether you are a Christian or not?
Since God is not the Author of confusion, that leaves Satan the one who creates it.
IF you were a tare, don't you think you would believe strongly that you WERE in fact, a Christian? If you ARE a Christian, (or desperately want to be one), Satan has a good deal to gain by keeping you in confusion.
It's kind of like Abraham, who believed God in spite of the circumstances around him, which told him to NOT believe God. Because he continued to believe God's spoken Word, in spite of the fact that he was 100 and Sarah was 80, they eventually became parents of Isaac, the son of promise. It was Abraham's faith that was credited for righteousness.
ALL Christians doubt, or at least are tempted to doubt the nature of their salvation. Faith in God through Christ keeps us moving on, so that we say with Job, "Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him."
I don't know if I've answered your question, but I hope I have eased your stress somewhat. I'll certainly pray for you.
21At 8:49 am Jan/12/10 mike gordon said...
I wonder where these angle demons dwell? Do you think it is happening today?are they prepairing for armmageddon?
22At 12:08 am Jan/13/10 Fred said...
Hi Mike,
In my opinion, the angel demons (as Paul indicates) are rulers of the air. That is their realm. If they can inhabit a body of some type, the better for them.
I believe that this is what Christ was alluding to when He pointed to the days of Noah; that these beings would appear again as they appeared during Noah's time.
I also find it fascinating that within the UFO phenomenon today, more and more people are claiming to have been taken by aliens. Some are obviously crackpots, but in too many cases, the details are stark.
It is also interesting that within the New Age movement, UFOology is big and supposedly, humans like Barbara Marciniak have received transmissions from aliens about biblical concepts. You would think aliens would be more interested in helping humanity eliminate things like AIDS, cancers and the common cold, but their messages are ALWAYS related to the Bible.
I do believe we are seeing an insurgence of demon-type behavior, which will lead to the same type of situation that existed during Noah's day.
Chuck Missler has a great book on the subject called "Alien Encounters" if you would like to start your own search on it.
23At 3:43 pm Mar/09/10 craig said...
Hi Rodger,
The blood of Christ is able to save all mankind, the power of his blood is beyond anyones comprehension. The reality is that many will not believe that they need a savior, and also many that look for a savior do not believe that his blood can save them. In the words of Jesus'Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.' John 3:18 If you want to be saved you can be, If you have already asked to be saved you are. Stop allowing doubt to creep in and deceive you, only continue to ask him daily for cleansing and for him to empower you to live for him.
24At 9:34 pm Apr/10/10 June Dowell said...
Whether angels reproduce or not, no one will ever know, until we get to heaven, then we won't care.
I believe the rapture is so close, we need to be more concerned about getting the body of Christ ready to go, and getting sinners saved, than to worry about whether angels reproduce or not.
I love information of such things, but to argue about whether something we will never know, in my estimation is 'idle words'
The Holy Spirit will reveal to whomever He wishes the truth, and if He doesn't, we don't need to know
25At 1:13 pm May/25/10 Alexandra said...
'The only issue I have with this theory, is that it gives angels the ability to re-produce, which then leads to angel babys... this is not supported by the Word of God, furthermore, Jesus said about angels, that they neither mary nor are given in marriage, so if the angels don't marry, then they don't reproduce... So this theory about angels being able to provide sperm for human women raises a big red flag... just food for thought... Please let me know what your thoughts are about that.'
Who says you have to be married to reproduce? People reproduce all the time out of wedlock.
26At 12:36 am Jun/23/10 Fred said...
I agree, June about not arguing about these things. Ultimately, it does not matter.
Maybe it's your terminology, but I do not agree that we 'get the body of Christ ready' for anything. God does that and as far as the Body of Christ is concerned, according to Paul in Ephesians 2, we are ALREADY seated with Him in the heavenly realms.
There are many things in Scripture that are important for us to know and to study. Is Eschatology as important as Soteriology? Hardly, but that does not mean that we should not study it, especially considering the fact that Jesus taught it in His Olivet Discourse.
Alexandra, that's fine. You are most welcome to believe what you would like to believe. In this issue, it does not matter to me, and my opinion on it really should not matter to you.
I would simply like to say that Jesus said the angels are neither married nor given in marriage. He did not say they could NOT reproduce. They certainly might have the ability, but only the FALLEN angels chose to do it, which is WHY they fell.
When I get to heaven, I understand that I will not be married or given in marriage, because I am part o the Bride of Christ. Does this mean I will all of a sudden become genderless, or does it mean that I will have no ability to procreate? Or, does it mean that my station in eternity is being married to JESUS and because of that fact, I no longer have the ability to marry or to be given in marriage?
In my mind, I believe Jesus is speaking of the state of marriage here, not intercourse. It would probably help to do some research on the Jewish understanding of marriage during the Old Testament times. The process of engagement, betrothal and finally, the ceremony of the marriage is far different from what most Gentiles think.
In the OT, people were considered married once they were betrothed, but this did not mean they had intercourse. They were simply considered to be married.
Ultimately, it really does not matter. There are strong opinions on both sides. What you need to do is make up your mind what you believe and go with that.
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